Brian Davis joins Mosah Fernandez Goodman on this episode of Hiring Insights to discuss advancing your career as an outside counsel. Brian handles lateral partner recruiting and in-house searches for financial services clients and law firms. He is particularly skilled in private equity, hedge fund, corporate, corporate finance, capital markets, compliance and tax searches for major financial institutions, broker-dealers, hedge funds, private equity funds, asset managers, sovereign wealth funds, family offices and law firms, domestically and internationally. In addition to his work in the United States, Brian has extensive experience with international firms in London, the European Union and the Middle East.
Topics discussed:
When do law firms choose to engage a search firm and what does that process look like?
Tools that candidates should be utilizing when either contemplating a search or in the middle of one.
If you’re an associate or partner considering a move, what active steps should you be taking?
No one is worried about your career except for you, you have to manage it.
Expectations for an attorney’s book of business and does that impact their ability to be recruited.
Common myths about the recruiting process.
Trends in the legal industry.
Red flags that candidates should avoid.
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[00:00:48] Mosah: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of Hiring Insights. I'm your host, Mosah Fernandez Goodman. Today's episode is being brought to you by Top Talent Advocates. Today, we're joined by a seasoned recruiting pro. Brian Davis of Major Lindsay Africa is someone who has experience on both sides of the legal equation, if you will, representing employers in their searches for both in-house candidates and law firms in their searches for partners and associates.
And so, could not be more thrilled to welcome Brian to the show today. Brian, thanks so much for joining us.
[00:01:24] Brian: Thank you, Mosah. And as you mentioned, my name is Brian Davis. I'm the managing partner of the New York office of Major Lindsay and Africa. We are the world's largest legal recruiting firm. As a matter of fact, the New York office, if it were a standalone business, would be the world's largest legal recruiting firm.
As you had mentioned, we place both in-house and law firm lawyers. We work with every law firm in the country, and we like to think of ourselves as thought leaders. We publish a lateral partner satisfaction survey, which we've published since 1996. Uh, we do the law firm compensation survey. And we also have a law firm culture survey.
So we feel we're pretty deep in this space and helps us, uh, do our jobs better.
[00:02:07] Mosah: Thanks so much, Brian. That's really helpful. And I know in working with candidates and clients across the country that the MLA surveys are often a benchmark in how people think about each of those areas. So thanks so much for sharing that and reminding us about their availability.
Brian, you know, let's get to know you a little bit. Um, would you share some information about and some maybe personal experiences about who you are? I know you're an attorney or at least a recovering attorney. Give us a little insight into who you are and kind of how you got into this field.
[00:02:38] Brian: Well, I'm as New York as anybody can be.
I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I spent my entire educational career in the city of New York. I went to Fordham undergrad, I went to Brooklyn Law School, and I have an LM from NYU, so a deep New York connections. I'm married. My son just started NYU last week. I don't think he's going to be a lawyer, although my daughter is going to law school.
So, uh, we'll see how this all works out. But it's very New York, very Brooklyn, as you can tell by my accent, New York born and bred. I practiced law for, gosh, a quarter of a century. And like a lot of happy accidents stumbled into this career in my late 40s. I had no idea I'd be any good at it. And it turns out I'm very good at it, but it was, my law firm went out of business.
I was, as I said, in my late 40s, trying to figure out what to do next. And somebody steered me into this career, and it's been a great success and I'm always internally grateful to the woman who first taught me how to be a recruiter.
[00:03:45] Mosah: That’s great. That's great. As a fellow native New Yorker, I might ask you later in the episode, you know, do you know what a grit is?
But, uh, that's a lot more so to the show, the movie my cousin Vinny. Um, alright, so let's spend a little bit of time talking about law firms, and when they come to engage a search firm. You know, there are a lot of boutiques out there. There's obviously the AM Law 100 and 200, and a lot of these law firms have recruiting departments of their own.
Tell us a little bit about when law firms, uh, choose to engage a search firm and, and what that looks like. Where, how do you meet those needs?
[00:04:20] Brian: We're usually approached as part of a process. It's no secret. Anybody can go on a firm's website or go through LinkedIn now and get names, but we get hired to navigate the process, really, to use our deep expertise.
If a firm is unfamiliar with a geography or an area of practice they will hire us to start by mapping out the market, seeing who's out there. And then once we are retained for that, then we decide the best method of approaching that talent. Uh, we work, we're actually doing several of these right now.
We work closely with the law firms after we've identified candidates. Uh, we figure out the best talent for the strategic growth usually of a law firm. Are we plugging a hole? That would take us one way. Is a firm going into a new direction? That would take us another way. Is a firm in a practice area, but really needs to get bigger in order to compete.
And that'll steer us in another direction. So it's really listening and coming up with a plan to approach the talent in the market. We also vet the talent not to disparage other people. We don't just throw resumes against the wall. We really meet with people and try to add a lot of value to the search process.
Again, it's not a secret. Anybody can go on LinkedIn now. As my friend who was a bartender used to tell me, knowing how to pour the drink is 10 percent of the job. And I always thought that was a great description of being a good recruiter. You know, knowing where the people are is 10 percent of the job.
The rest of it is, uh, matching expectations and really being able to, I hate to keep using this word, navigate the process to a successful conclusion.
[00:06:08] Mosah: So Brian, at the end of the day, when you're looking to place someone in a law firm, what are those core responsibilities? What is it that you're really charged with doing as a recruiter in helping matchmaker bridge those needs to those demands?
[00:06:21] Brian: Well, I'd say the first of the criteria is listening to the firm's reasons for going into the market. Like, how can we help them achieve their goal? And is it entering a new market? Is it entering a new geography? Is it entering a new practice area? Is it filling a hole with somebody who's left recently?
Is it needing to bulk up? Especially in New York, you usually need to have deep benches to compete for most work. Once we've come up with the reasons for the search, when we start talking to candidates, we'll ask them the nature of their client relationships. Sometimes this is really important in their book of business.
Can they sustain themselves? I've had managing partners say to us, he's really terrific or she's really terrific, but what's she going to do when she gets here? We have business, but we don't have enough business to keep this person busy. They have to come in the door with some business that they can work on.
The other key area is practice area. And then we also try to delve into candidates reputation in the market. We keep everything confidential, but we try to figure out, is this going to be a match in reputation between the candidate and the law firm? I think I had mentioned before we map the market, we come up with a target list.
We also try very early on to avoid what I, we consider fatal conflicts, which are just nonstarters. You know, it's very important if you're doing a search for a pharma company, are they generic? Are they branded? Is your candidate's biggest client, Apple, but the biggest client at the firm is Google, that's probably going to be an irreconcilable conflict.
And you want that out right away. We love you, but we can't move ahead, because this conflict can't be overcome. And then we also will move fairly quickly into some sort of draft of a business plan with the candidate, because lawyers like to see things in writing, and that applies to the lateral partner process, where even though a candidate might consider it homework, we always tell them, you're going to have to do this eventually.
And it will help you to explain yourself if you can reduce things to writing so that a law firm management committee or a hiring partner can say, okay, now I get it. Okay, this is where you're going to go with this business plan. We rarely place partners who haven't worked on a business plan and that's, that's the value we add for working with a recruiter.
Because we have form after form, we filled out hundreds of them, and can really help them put pen to paper. But, uh, at least come up with something that something, somebody, something can be distributed. Because what candidates have to understand is law firms are big businesses, they have operating committees, they have management committees, they have executive committees, and there's going to be something put in front of the decision makers.
And it has to be a professional business plan that somebody can go through and say, okay, this makes sense for us to, to bring this person on board.
[00:09:21] Mosah: Yeah, no, that's great. And that, that's true for really all materials, right? Whether it be a resume or someone's LinkedIn profile. Um, I love the, the age-old adage of everything communicates.
So whether it be a business plan or a resume, even some cases, and I don't know, this is the newer experience, putting together a pitch deck can be helpful to linking a candidate to the right part. So Brian, you know, the pitch deck concept is one that we've worked on for startups and we've also worked on firms.
Any thoughts on that?
[00:09:51] Brian: Well, we usually advise candidates that they should be viewing this opportunity as you would trying to land a client. If you have doubts, hold them inside, get through this round of interviews, but, you know, be in either sales or pitch mode. Try not to under promise and over deliver because, trust me, the law firm is going to assume you're over promising.
And to just really come up with a cohesive business plan that's probably going to be read by anywhere from 10 to 20 people. And it's probably the most important part of the whole process.
[00:10:24] Mosah: Brian, just curious to get your take on sort of the myriad of tools that candidates or job seekers can avail themselves of as they either undergo or even maybe just contemplate a search.
[00:10:38] Brian: Well, I suggest following the many publications now that track deals, track movement, and just see what's going on, especially in your practice area. If so and so has moved firms, you might want to say, why is that happening? I, like most recruiters, I'm on LinkedIn every day, and everybody likes to put up notices about their deals.
And I find you can figure out a lot of information of different law firms, different lawyers. And if you're an M&A lawyer in New York and you see that somebody, one of your competitors, has posted four deals in the last two weeks, it may give you pause to think, okay, why is he getting this work? Why am I not getting this work?
So, I think you can see who's doing well, to be candid, but I use LinkedIn a lot, and I think law firm partners can certainly check in on that, and they do, and see what their peers are up to, because LinkedIn's around a decade old. Prior to that, it was pretty hard to suss out what everybody was up to, but now it's pretty much open book, and you can see what you're, either you're friends or your competition are doing.
So, I strongly suggest tracking what's going on in your practice area through LinkedIn and there's Penhawk and there's other areas, but I think LinkedIn is the best at that, right?
[00:11:55] Mosah: And if you might share with us a little bit about in addition to working with a recruiter, some of the other resources that a candidate could avail themselves of as I either enter or will contemplate entering a search?
[00:12:08] Brian: Well, again, being on social media and every law firm now has issues, press releases, which they never used to do. And so, I think it's a good idea to see what you're doing and your firm is doing matches up to your peers? Are you pretty much step-by-step with them?
Are they outpacing you? Have they recently taken on a client that you wanted? And it's really good to just track the competition to see what's going on. It doesn't have to be LinkedIn, but any of these online publications. See who's moving. Is this a big change in the market? Has somebody lost a key player at a firm you're really interested in?
And maybe this is the time to talk to that firm about joining them because they just lost their ERISA partner or whatever the skill set is. And you've always wanted to go there and it was never feasible, but now it is because they've lost the talent. So I, I think that's a good idea. And I, I think it's also part of practice development, like you just really should know what's going on in the market and with your competition as much as possible.
[00:13:15] Mosah: Brian, if we could spend a little bit of time now, the next couple of minutes, at least focusing on really some advice for candidates. And we've touched on some of the topics that I think are beneficial for candidates. Let's spend some time giving some advice to either associates or partners who maybe have an itch, if you will, to switch firms or don't know when they should even be open to new opportunities as they're approached by people like you.
So just some general advice as to when, when you would recommend giving your years of experience in both practice and recruiting. When should someone consider making a switch to a new firm?
[00:13:51] Brian: Well, this applies to associates and partners. Nobody is worried about your career. So you need to worry about your career.
Just kind of floating along, thinking that there's somebody in your firm who's worried about you is just unrealistic. So I always suggest developing a relationship with one or two or three recruiters, do background checks, try to find out who you think would match up with what you want to accomplish out of life, and then check in with that person once a year, once every six months.
I know at this stage of my career; I have people checking with me every week. There's a different person checking in. They want to take inventory. Where's my career going? Am I making enough money? And just talk to a good recruiter. Even if the recruiter doesn't end up moving you, they can be a good sounding board.
I had a guy today call me from a firm and he just wanted to do a market check. He said, here's what's going on at my firm. Here's what I'm worried about. I don't want to leave, but I want to know what's going on in the market. And a good recruiter will really have a grip on the market and can say, I, the guy today, I said, stay where you are.
You're in a pretty good position and I really suggest you stay where you are for now. Things may change a year or so from now, but. I think the timing isn't right for you to try to make a move. And I also try to get candidates to think about the issues that drive movement. And in no particular order, compensation, even if people tell you it's not the main motivation, tends to be a big motivator and compensation, not on an absolute basis, but usually on a relative basis am I, how am I doing with people in similar jobs or similar partnerships doing the same amount of work?
Another big thing to be on the lookout for are potential conflicts. I represent Apple and the firm's wooing Google. That doesn't bode well for me. And I should really now start thinking about do I have to make a move. The biggest complaint we get or the biggest motivator for moving I still think it's compensation, but after compensation is a lack of confidence in the firm's strategy or management.
We've done surveys for almost 30 years, and that always is either number one, two, or three on the reasons that somebody decides to move. They are not aligned with the growth of the firm, so they have to start looking around. And then the other thing that always pops up in capital letters, and I hear this a lot from candidates, is culture.
There's several firms out right now that are incredibly successful. When partners approach us from those firms, it's usually not money, it's culture. Okay, I'm making a lot of money, but I'm miserable. I need to be at a place where I like going to work every day. And, uh, we hear that a lot. And when it's not money, it's culture for people who want to move.
And then you have other things where you've brought on a new client. And that client is based in London or has operations in London or whatever city, and your firm is completely domestic, and you have to analyze whether you really need to be at a firm with a foreign office or a particular foreign office.
I would say working in New York, the number one city that gets mentioned to me at least is London. Most of the partners I work with, the firm has to have a presence in London. And then the final thing, and this depends upon, um, where you are in your career is, do you see a possibility for leadership or growth opportunities?
Is it important for you to be the leader of a practice or will that help you grow your business? And if that is important, do you see that happening where you are now? If you don't see it happening, then you might call a recruiter to talk about, okay, I'm actually not too bad here, but I know that I'll never be the leader of this practice group and that's important to me, uh, for my career.
So I need to start considering firms where I could go in, in a leadership position.
[00:18:01] Mosah: That’s wonderful insight. So if you're a candidate in the market, either today or just generally, what are some of the things you can do to make yourself more marketable, whether or not you want to lead, what can you really sort of do to make it easier to be recruited?
And why should people do this if it's growing a book of business, if it's enhancing their reputation? What are some of those things that someone can do to have someone like you call them?
[00:18:29] Brian: Well, I'll go back to what I said initially. I really think it's a good idea to have a relationship with a respected recruiter just for market intel and a take on where the candidate is relative to his peers at other firms.
And I find a lot of partners rely too much on getting a call and not enough on establishing relationship or relationships with respected recruiters. This way you can do, as I had mentioned before, the market check. I'll repeat what I said initially, is no one's worried about your career except for you.
So you really need to manage it. Be something that sometimes lawyers have trouble with, which is being proactive. You can always stay where you are. We always tell candidates, hey, you can always say no. Nobody's going to force you to do something ever. But it's a mistake to at least not understand why you're doing what you're doing.
And even if you stay where you are, you're making a decision. You know, you're making that decision every day. And it should be a decision based upon an educated understanding of the market itself. I find that sometimes lawyers, it's easy to just kind of thinking they're not making that decision to stay or go.
But by staying, you're making that decision. And you should really have a reason for that almost every day that you're at a law firm. Because that's the big difference. Compared to when I graduated from law school, you usually got a job and stayed there for your entire career. Now, even a cursory review of the different market publications, you'll see that moving around is actually much more common, way more common than it used to be.
And every law firm, in the city and in the country and the world is now in that market and you should understand what that all means as far as you and your career.
[00:20:20] Mosah: That’s a great segue to my next question, which is related to the concept of a book of business and perhaps it's portability. There are at least in my professional networks and even in my social networks, a wide variety of attorneys in terms of their appetite for ability to add sort of phases of developing a book of business.
Some, some folks in my experience have no book of business and, and are really just interested in doing the work. I'm curious if you might shed some light and admittedly, this is, this is a tough question because there's not a single answer that can be applied to every situation, but you could share some, some insight to the expectations for an attorney's book and maybe how that may impact their ability to be recruited or potentially need lead firms.
[00:20:15] Brian: well, I'll be a lawyer now and not answer that question because as with most things in life. It depends. I think some people are way more comfortable being a partner who is a good partner and loyal and works hard, but just has no desire to develop client relationships.
I think that also is a big change compared to 40 or 50 years ago, where you could work at a firm your entire career, never develop client skills, but still have a really good job. My take on the whole market is that's changing dramatically. I think if your plan is to never develop clients, you're really taking a big risk with your career.
I often say that the only job security law firm partners really have is their clients, their book of business, and you want to try to develop that as soon as possible. Uh, I think that most law firms now, if not all, value that. And, uh, there's a whole industry of executive coaches and the law firms have their own trainers who will sit with you and say, okay, like it or not, you're in the sales game now.
What are you trying to sell? Who's your target clients? How do you grow your book of business? I don't think there's a magic number, really. And, I have seen partners move with no clients, but they usually have a skill set that's almost impossible to find. And, uh, law firms will take them on. I've actually had a law firm say to me at one stage that they wanted the partner to leave his clients.
Because it just didn't make any difference to them because it's he was a strategic acquisition and they had plenty of work to keep him busy. But I think it's risky in your career, especially if you're out 15 or maybe 20 years, and you've really never developed client relationships to think, how long can I keep doing this?
Um, it's now a big part of every law firm. And I think it would be wise for partners to try to develop those skills. And if it's uncomfortable, that's okay. Not everybody's a born rainmaker, but there's so much available lessons and classes and teaching and as a recovering service partner, which is what I was before I got into recruiting I know that there's skills down there that everybody has.
I had never made a call in my life until I became a recruiter. And then I had to. And then I found out I could do it. And then I found out I was good at it. And I think that most law firm partners need to kind of deal with it the way I dealt with it, which is do it and not rely on somebody else doing that for you.
I know it's difficult and I know it can be a big challenge for people, but I really think that if you're looking at working for 20 or 30 more years or 40 more years, it would really reduce your career risks if you can develop client relationships,
[00:24:10] Mosah: That's really helpful. And I think phrased well for a question that is truly impossible to answer.
So thanks again for that insight. Brian, when you think about maybe even practice groups and some of the other attributes that might go along with someone to move from one firm to another, do you think about teams of attorneys when you're sometimes looking to fill a firm or clients needs to satisfy that to say the portability of a full department or practice area, if you will, from one firm to another, do you think about those connections that sit below or adjacent to the candidate themselves?
[00:24:47] Brian: When you talk about team movement, they just add layers of dynamics. I know as a recruiter, what we try to figure out is who's really driving the process. And if somebody is driving the process, is everybody else on board? So you need to manage expectations and to be candid egos sometimes. And just trying to figure out, usually when there's groups, there's a spokesperson.
And is that spokesperson really the spokesperson? Or is his or her desires not matching up with the rest of the team? Because I've seen that also too, where somebody approached us as a spokesperson for a group, and then halfway through the process, you realize, oh no, he or she was not the spokesperson. That this was his desires.
So as recruiters, what we try to do when we are working with groups. It's to meet with everybody on the group in the group to figure out if everybody's aligned. If there's five people doesn't make as much sense for the fifth person to do this as for the first person, and it doesn't always isn't always driven by who controls the clients because many times there may be a partner with the key client relationship, but a junior partner if the junior partner doesn't go, sometimes it doesn't work because the client knows who's doing all the work and says, I don't mind switching firms, but this person has to come. So you have to be aware of that.
And the other thing within a group or multiple attorneys is figuring out potential conflicts, personal conflicts, business conflicts, ethical conflicts.
So it just gets more complicated with a group. And it's been a, it was a major group movement over the last two weeks. I wasn't involved in it, but I'm, I'm guessing that went so smoothly because there was an alignment with the group of the necessity to do something and also the firm they were talking to.
[00:26:41] Mosah: Could you pepper us with just a few quick common myths about the recruitment process?
[00:26:47] Brian: Yeah. I think the most common myth is that recruiters are the enemy. And recruiters actually can get somebody to do something they don't want to do. I've never seen that ever. I think a good recruiter manages expectations.
That's the myth I hear the most. It's somehow recruiters are actually driving the process and they're not, they're just, they're advisors. And a good recruiter understands that. So I'd say that's the biggest myth I find. And the other thing is, maybe this isn't a myth, but one time a law firm partner said to me: in this age and in this country, the thought of staying someplace where you're not happy just mystified him. He said, you're well educated, you work hard, you should be doing stuff you want to do. And I've heard partners say that to me, the devil you know. And I think, jeez, you're only 10, 15 years into your career.
That just seems dreary, that you would keep doing the same thing. Not being fulfilled, you know, happy may be the wrong word, but not being fulfilled because you just are afraid that if you go someplace else you'll just be as unhappy except in a new place. And the other myth that I hear a lot too is that all law firms are the same.
I don't think that's true at all. But I think that there's a stark difference between firms, and as an outsider, a recruiter, I think I can see that sometimes more clearly than people who are actually playing the game in the law firms. And I think that's the value that a good recruiter can add, is explaining why you should talk to X firm instead of Y firm.
Because there is, there's cultural differences, there's economic differences, and there's firms that are just really good at nurturing talent. And I think that's important.
[00:28:38] Mosah: Brian, you know, there’s the legal industry is just that it's an industry and it's got ebbs and flows. It's got evolutions and innovation as someone who's been in the game, if you will, either as an attorney or as a recruiter for several decades.
What are some of the changes that you've seen? And how have those changes impacted the market for talent? Sometimes people talk about particular firm or particular, uh, maybe even region being dominated by particular practice areas. Curious if you might shed a little light on what you see as those trends.
[00:29:12] Brian: Well, one trend I've seen over the last 20 or 30 years is kind of the concentration of practice groups. And from where I sit, most firms, if not every firm, is focused on private equity, a business that didn't exist even 50 years ago. And then I'd say public M&A, and I'd say internal investigations. I'd say bet the ranch commercial litigation.
Big ticket white collar. And then finally, I'd say IP litigation. Uh, there were other incredibly important practice areas, but these seem to come up with every, in every law firm meeting I go to. I always joke that the three most important practice areas in New York are private equity, number two, private equity, and number three, private equity.
The areas I mentioned are where law firms probably get the least pushback on rates. And a lot of other practice areas, maybe they're not commodities, but the firms do get a lot of pushback on rates. But these high profile areas. Especially like internal investigations or white collar, where you're going to go to jail if you lose the case so you don't quibble so much with what the bill rate is.
And I was thinking back to 2008 during the financial crisis, when big institutions were either went out of business or were in a lot of trouble. Nobody quippled with Rodge Cohens bill rate at Sullivan and Cromwell or Brad Karp's bill rate at Paul Weiss. Because it was, you know, the success or the continuation of a major enterprise depended on getting the right person on the phone who could give you the right advice.
And I think that that's become even more pronounced 15 years later, that there's ] just these areas where law firms can bill over 2,000 an hour now, if not more, uh, because the importance of these areas cannot be overstated in the legal profession.
[00:31:18] Mosah: If we could, for a second, flip the script and jump on the side of your client that you've provided a ton of insight for those candidates looking for. We can peek behind the curtain. If a law firm comes to you, and there's probably some variety, and maybe there's not a 1 size fits all to this question either, but um, someone comes to you and says, you know, Brian, we need a, we need to hire a particular skill set for a law firm. What's the average time or length of search? What are their typical expectations? What's the range in there? Just so we can help demystify some of the time.
[00:31:52] Brian: Not to sound like a lawyer again, but an equivocate, but it depends.
But I've worked on a search that went on for well over a year. But I think that I know that the data from our surveys shows that by far most searches take three months. It can be shorter, uh, it can be a lot longer, but on our most recent survey, more than 50 percent of the people we spoke to said that their search took three months.
So that's, uh, I'll stick with that. And that seems reasonable when, when we were approached by a firm and they asked for this timeline, we, we try to tell them a lot of it depends on them, but our studies show that it takes around three months.
[00:32:32] Mosah: And in looking on behalf of your clients, you know, the law firms.
And also maybe from a law firm's perspective, what are some of the red flags that candidates should be aware of that potentially disqualify them or at least make them less attractive to potential lawyers. What are some of those things where you said oh, I can't believe they did that or I would have never phrased it that way. What are some of those things they can see?
[00:32:59] Brian: Well, this could go on for quite a while. Okay, but I won't bore you. So, but here's the one thing that is a red flag for me is when I'm speaking to a law firm partner who's obviously well-educated and sophisticated and I ask for some basic information and I get double talk or a slowness to respond or just some evasiveness that sets off red flags because people love bragging about their successes.
So if somebody's dodging a basic question, then I think, okay, I need to really go into this, uh, deeply. One of my former colleagues would say if she asked a law firm associate what their grades were and the associate said, well, I don't think grades are important and my colleague would say how bad are they then? Because if you had all As, you would be telling me in a second that you had all As.
And, um, we kind of take that approach where we give somebody the opportunity to brag and they just equivocate, and that's usually a red flag that we need to, uh, and sometimes we're wrong that the person just didn't want to talk about it at that moment. But we know we have to go back and check on that because we don't want to work with a candidate who is evasive and then he gets in front of the law firm and is evasive again, that reflects on us. So that's a red flag we look for. The other thing is, um, and this is not dispositive, but if somebody's made a lot of moves, we have to just delve into that. And a lot of times people have good reasons.
Their firm went out of business. Their practice group moved. They got conflicted out, which is probably the number one reason. But we have to then dig into that because within law firms, the law firm is going to want to find out, okay, this person's been with 10 law firms in 10 years. We'll listen to the story, but why?
Uh, and it has to make sense. So those are, I'd say, two big red flags we look for when we work with candidates.
[00:35:00] Mosah: And I’m wondering if you could maybe just opine for a minute or so on, uh, what you're seeing in the legal market today.
[00:35:05] Brian: Well, I'd say that, again, this is not just this year, but over the last decade or so, one of the biggest trends has been the upswing in compensation.
Uh, the Wall Street Journal has an article on this. It came out around a month or so ago. Partners in the big law firms, especially in New York, are making money that investment bankers made 20 years ago. I'd say the other big change has been mergers. There seems like there's fewer and fewer firms. Uh, there's still a lot of firms.
I think the other thing is the difficulty that mid-sized firms have in competing with the big firms. Uh, so boutiques always seem to do okay, but it's harder for firms that have a structure similar to a Skadden Arps, but just can't afford to maintain that structure. So I'd say that was a, that's a big change.
And when I got out of law school, there were dozens, if not hundreds, of medium sized firms, most of which have gone out of business. The other trend I'm seeing is the domination of New York in the legal market. A lot of firms that were started out in Chicago or Los Angeles or Texas, now count New York as their biggest office because they have to be here and they have to have a significant practice or significant presence in New York.
Going back to private equity, I'm finding that private equity is driving many, if most not, most law firm decisions. Witness the recent, uh, big moves in New York and London. And another thing that's, I think time will tell, is the availability for remote work or work from home or two to three days in the office, we won't know how that's going to play out at least for another five years or so, but that's been a change because we get a lot of lawyers who are very happy, but just do not want to go back to work in five days a week in the office.
Every lawyer works seven days a week, uh, but they just don't want to be in the office five days a week. So I say that's, that's a big change, but what's going to happen. Only time will tell.
[00:37:06] Mosah: So Brian, thanks so much for joining us. I've enjoyed our conversations prior to the recording. And, uh, really excited to share your years of insight and, uh, actually decades of perspective with our listeners.
So thanks again for joining.
[00:37:19] Brian: Thank you, Mosah. Happy to be here.
