Tom O'Connor, George Zaharatos, Lem Montgomery | Navigating an Executive Career Path

On the first episode of this two-part series of Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman sits down with Tom O’Connor, George Zaharatos, and Lem Montgomery.  Tom is the former Executive Vice President of Compliance & Ethics, EHS, ESG at Guardian Industries, George is the Principal-Global Data and Technology Leader for Trade and Customs at KPMG, and Lem is an attorney for Butler Snow, LLP. We focus the discussion on doing something your passionate about, mentorship, and networking to advance your career at any stage.  

• Navigating your career path; is it intentional, linear, or opportunistic?

• Regardless of your age or the stage of your career, having a mentor in your life is crucial to success.

• Building a network without it feeling transactional.

• Overcoming the fear of potential rejection when networking.

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  Prior to the release of this episode, Tom O’Connor and Guardian Industries agreed on a mutual separation allowing Tom the time to travel south and spend much needed quality time with his ailing father.

  Mosah: [00:00:56] Tom, Lem, George, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate you being on our next episode of Hiring Insights brought to you by Top Talent Advocates. Many of our listeners will already know the companies that you work for or the firms that you work for but they might not necessarily know you as individuals, and I'm hopeful that each of you, let's start with George, could tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, who you work for, what you love to do, and then maybe a fun fact or what you're reading.

  George: [00:01:26] Well, it's great to be here first of all. My name is George Zaharatos. I'm a partner with the Trading Customs Group here at KPMG, an accounting firm. I think a lot of folks know that we have audit and tax services and advisory services within that, you know, we also have what I handle, which is trade and customs.

  I've been with the firm 18 years, have been serving large multinational companies ever since I started. A little bit about myself. You know, this past weekend I was drifting in one of the m class BMWs, and that was fun. So I'm a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. Love shows like Ted Lasso and you know, just feel-good stuff.

  And I like doing things new, right? Like traveling, going to new places, having new experiences. So it's been a great career here in that regard. There's no one day that's the same as the one before, and there's always something changing. A little bit of a different, you know, tact that most folks would get into when they go to school.

  You're not gonna have someone who says, I wanna actually specialize in trade and customs. So it's one of those areas where a lot of people ask, well, how did you get into it? And I always say that I studied government and politics. I'm not an attorney or a CPA for that matter. You know, I always say that, you know, when I lived in New York City, it was hard to park a car anywhere.

  So I thought if I had diplomatic plates, I would be able to park wherever I wanted, right? So I was like, let me study international relations, maybe get some plates and you know, that's how I got into the space and that's how I am doing what I'm doing now.

  Mosah: [00:03:01] That’s great. Thanks so much, George. I know our audience is looking forward to learning and from you and listening to you.

  So one of our other two guests is Tom O'Connor. Tom, same question to you, background and uh, little bit about yourself.

  Tom: [00:03:15] Yeah, great Mosah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate the invitation here. And of course, George and Lem it’s always great to see you guys. Our career trajectory has been shaped pretty identically over the last several years, and I appreciate you guys being on the journey with us.

  So Mosah, as you can probably tell, like George, I as well am from the New York City area. So I think Lem’s gonna be a little bit of the outlier here, in that regard. But, I'm the presently Vice President of Compliance and Ethics for one of Koch Industries standalone companies, Guardian Industries based in Auburn Hills, Michigan.

  I've been here in this role since 2018 when I was asked to come up to this newly acquired company and set up the compliance and ethics program, and since that time, I now have the ehs capability, our stewardship function, which most companies refer to as sustainability. Product stewardship reports up to me, like a friend of mine told me I, uh, won the pie eating contest and my reward was more pie.

  So that's about where I’m at. Yeah, but I've been with Koch for about 20, over almost 25 years now. I started out with Georgia Pacific in Atlanta, where I was an in-house counsel, and then had the opportunity to be the interim general counsel for one of our affiliate companies Colonial Pipeline during a pretty trying period for them.

  So, um, I've done that. I went to law school in Colorado lived in a number of different places. Worked for the US government for a while. Like I said, grew up in New York City and avid, avid New York Mets fan. I apologize in advance.

  You mentioned a book that I'm reading. I'm reading a book right now by Stacey Schiff. It's called The Revolutionary. It's about Sam Adams and the journey towards American Independence. I typically read books that are, in fact, I only read non-fiction, whether it's a historical piece or a biography. This one's a little bit of both, but I've found it really fascinating in this book, the vitriol that was spilled even back then with respect to the political wins and the misinformation that was, that was banted about it kind of mirrors what we're going through now.

  So it's really interesting that the First Amendment is alive and well, even before we had, even before we had a First Amendment.

  Mosah: [00:05:22] That's fascinating. Thanks. And Lem Montgomery. Hopefully you can, you know, top those two.

  Lem: [00:05:30] Yeah, that's, that's hard to top. Tom's right. First of all, thanks for, thanks for having me. I'm so glad to be here with these guys to do this podcast.

  Uh, Tom's right, I'll be the outlier here. I'm from Mississippi. I've lived here all my life. I'm in Madison, Mississippi originally, actually right now, grew up in Fort Gibson, Mississippi. Population 2,500 at the time. Went to the University of Mississippi, graduated and my major was business with an emphasis in insurance and risk management.

  That was, my father was an insurance agent and a claims adjuster, and so I, it was kind of in the family. So I graduated and worked at an insurance company for about a year, and I was, uh, trained to be an underwriter, and that's when I went back to law school. Went back to the University of Mississippi, graduated from law school, and happened into the firm where I am now.

  It's Butler Snow. At the time it was Butler Snow, O'Mara, Stevens in Canada. It started in the fifties. It was the largest law firm in the state with five attorneys. They said it would never work. Uh, now we have 350 attorneys and 19 plus offices. Uh, my practice is litigation and trial work. Cut my teeth on product liability cases, civil rights cases, all defense work for corporations and governments, municipalities, that kind of thing.

  From there, our practice evolved into kind of a catastrophic disaster type cases where, you know, we'll come in and defend bigger claims of that nature. But I've loved it. My practice has taken me all over the country, practice now routinely and more in courts where I've never been than the ones I used to be familiar with.

  So I'm used to the road, and I love the common thread that the touchstone in it all for me is to tell the story. I love to tell the client's story, the corporate story, better than the owners of the story can tell it for themselves. I think that's where we bring extreme value.

  We're used to, we're used to bigger cases, but in every case, big or small, there's always, an important and usually an interesting story. And that's what I love about the work we do. That's my professional background. Uh, what am I watching, reading, following? Right now I'm reading the writings of Lucius Birch.

  Lucius Birch was an American civil rights attorney at a conservationist from Memphis, Tennessee. And this was a book that my grandmother, my late grandmother, happened to pass down, and I picked it up. It's really fascinating, it's got a lot of history of conservation and American civil rights law. So that's been fun.

  But I've been watching Yellowstone along with everybody else in the country and, uh, that recently led me to read on Undaunted Courage by Ambrose about the Lewis and Clark expedition and the opening of the American West. And so it all kind of tied together for me. I love it. I've rediscovered the outdoors with my 14-year-old.

  Uh, we're big bow hunters. We're interested in whitetail and I'm following the Hunting Public on YouTube and Facebook, if you're interested in that kind of thing. They're a bunch of 20-year-olds who go around hunting on public land, and they're all about conservation, outdoors, relationships with your friends you know, in the outdoors.

  A bunch of really cool guys. And so my son and I enjoy that. So that's, that takes up as far as what I can watch and read. That's about all I have time for outside the legal stuff.

  Mosah: [00:09:04] That’s tremendous. Lem thank you so much. Yeah you know, thinking about each of your backgrounds, they're so diverse.

  We've had a number of guests on, on this podcast from a variety of backgrounds, but to have such incredible variety in one episode is a real treat. You know, our listeners for the most part are interested in learning about what talent is looking for and how talent is managing their own sort of career, because they themselves are looking for or contemplating new opportunities, or they're looking to bring someone into their organization.

  And so given, given the variety of backgrounds that you have, and the question could be answered by whoever wants to start it off, I'm wondering if you might share a little bit about each of your paths.

  Did you navigate it with great intention was, was it linear, was it more opportunistic? Let our listeners into your individual journey and you know, if nobody wants to start, I'm gonna volunteer Tom, but cuz why not pick on one of the Met fans. But I think it'd be really interesting for people to hear what that intentionality or, or perhaps that luck that helped guide each of your so successful careers.

  Tom: [00:10:14] Hey Mosah, and look, that's a great question. I can tell you, and it's so applicable, not just for our own careers, but each of us has children. My son is now 19 years old and he is, you know at that, he is struggling with what he wants to do and finding his journey. I get it. I was there.

  Heck, I was there until probably I was 30 years old. I didn't know what I wanted to do. Your twenties, even post-college years of somewhat of a discovery. Uh, wasn't until I was with the US government, I was with the National Labor Relations Board for three years in Tennessee. When I realized what the attorneys were doing was far more interesting than what I was doing, which was investigating all the matters and then turning them over to the attorneys for, um, for trial.

  So I decided that right then, hey look, I've already got my master's degree. I'm looking for now this professional degree. So I decided to go back to law school and there is a little bit, when you have a job, you're got a pretty secure income and you leave all that to go to law school, now I was, you know, essentially practicing without a net, so it was all on me.

  But having that opportunity to take a chance, take a chance on yourself, find what it is that you're passionate about and then pursue it and jump in with both feet and get after it. That's what I think sets individuals apart who really want to succeed and want to get, and want to get ahead.

  I've had an unbelievably rewarding career as an attorney and now in the client sphere, but even that, your journey will take many different turns along the way. And I know that, I will say that George and Mosah you know this all too well. It's a saying in New York City where you have to have a rabbi in the room.

  Well, you better have an advocate for you too. Align yourselves with people for good people who have gone through their own journeys, regardless of what, whatever it may be, and listen to them. Every one of us is willing to share our journeys with fellow people coming up and those who are looking to take a different path.

  So I highly encourage find people that matter. Stick with people that matter, help other people succeed and you'll be successful.

  Mosah [00:12:14] That's great advice, Tom. Thank you. So George or Lem particular guidance for those who are looking to navigate their path, learning from each of your successful backgrounds.

  Lem: [00:12:26] I'm glad to talk a little bit about my background. There was a lot of luck involved in the journey to where I, to how I ended up here. I again started, you know, I was at an insurance company. I had great mentors, but they sort of had to put my career on pause while they were taking care of this major acquisition that was going on.

  So I had the opportunity to, to see the claims stuff and to see the underwriting side of that merger, that acquisition, there were attorneys around, the CEO was working hand in hand with them every day to witness it all, and that was part of the reason that I decided to take the risk as Tom put it, in the step of quitting that job and leaving to go back to law school, which I did.

  Uh, I found it fascinating. I had a great experience at Ole Miss Law School. Graduated, had several opportunities but joined Butler Snow because of who I would be working with, and it was less about what I would be working on. Great mentors, people I knew who fell in the process of being hired and being recruited, that they were gonna invest in me. That I was gonna have to watch and learn a lot, and to have some people pour a lot of years of experience, uh, into me.

  So I latched onto that and I said, I'm in for whatever practice group you want to put me in. From there, I fell backwards into the product liability group where I ended up with the good partners I've worked alongside for 20 years now, but it was largely, it was largely luck. I'd say the one decision I made though that I would recommend to anybody who's navigating their own career path is focus more on who you'll be working with and less on what you'll be working on.

  And that's not to say turn your back on your field and just find good folks, although that's a, that's not bad practice, but I would say, you know, find your opportunities. Pick from them based on who you'll be working with. Find good mentors who'll invest in you. You can't go wrong with that. That's what allowed me to learn and develop the skillset I needed to do what I do.

  Tom: [00:14:27] Now Lem, you said something really profound there about, about mentorship, which is unbelievable and I alluded to that in my discussion, but it's so important no matter what age you are, where you are in your career, to have a mentor to someone who believes in you, even if you're in a position that may not be your competitive advantage at the time. Continue to be open to that.

  The best example I can give of that is one of my mentors, my, in fact, my primary mentor, he started at Koch Industries right out of, he was with a small firm out of law school in Kansas, and he interviewed with Koch. They only had an opening in the litigation team.

  And he's like, I'm not a litigator. And I remember he would never forget what he, what he, what they said. Look, we get that, but that's the position we have right now. We know that you gotta be something else when you get here. We just want you. You've got the right cultural fit for us and we wanna bring you aboard.

  And sure enough, he trusted them. Took that leap of faith, was a litigator for eight or nine months, and they moved him into a role where he's ascended now to a very, very permanent position within Koch. Having that, being that nimble and understanding your first job, your second job, this isn't gonna be the be all, end all.

  You've got such opportunities and be thirsty for that knowledge and continue to grow within that sphere and having the right mentorships helps.

  Lem: [00:15:42] That’s exactly right. That's, and I've tried to pay that forward. I've tried to pass it on to the extent I can, but, and I'm really glad I, I went about it that way.

  Mosah: [00:15:51] Lem thank you so much for that. George, anything to add to the conversation before we move on to the next question?

  George: [00:15:56] Everybody has a journey and that's what makes us special. And being able to tell that story is what you know is so exciting about being us as individuals. I mean, when people ask me, what was your first job, I actually can't remember which of the many jobs was my first one, right?

  It was busing tables, plumber, electrician, working with my dad, doing a bunch of, you know, odds and ends. and you know, I grew up in an immigrant family household in Brooklyn, New York. And you know, a lot of it had to do with, you know, doing what you want to do to get through what you're doing now, right?

  Like kind of looking ahead months or years, but not 10 years and 20 years. But you also had this motivation and I guess the mentorship, in an immigrant family was, listen, you could do whatever you want as long as it's a doctor or a lawyer, right? You come up with one of the two. So over the years, I mean, you know, you just end up realizing that if you do something well and you're having fun doing it, that you know you'll, you'll continue to do it well and doesn't matter what it is really.

  I even tell my daughters this, so I'm just like, find whatever you want, but be great at it. Right? And, and have passion about it. I think that that's the overall advice. In terms of my journey, I interned with a small customs broker out at JFK. This was when we had like floppy disks and you'd switch 'em from one computer to another and like hit a button.

  It would transmit to customs. Then someone in customs would call you and say, this is no good. You gotta bring me documents. And we'd go to JFK and meet with customs. You know, you'd see a helicopter wrapped up in Saran Wrap sitting on the tarmac, and we were clearing, you know, different types of helicopters or would go in and have someone show up with diamonds, with you know, just a briefcase handcuffed to their hand.

  And we would clear them through customs. It was interesting. And, you know, it kept being interesting and you know, the only reason why was cuz I wanted to learn more about everything that was going on and I felt like the journey was one of curiosity, just as much as it was wanting to do well. Right?

  And that's what led me during this path to where I am with a lot of great mentors and a few people that came to me at some point in my career and said, you know what, George, I think you've exceeded what your potential is here at this company and I want to introduce you to someone who I think you should speak to and, you know, end up working for them instead.

  And that takes a lot, right? I mean, I have mentors I look back at and I said, if they never told me that, you know, I have more than what you know, is needed at this company and that I should go somewhere else and go into consulting, which is, which is what this person did for me. And I thank Nick for that.

  Ultimately I wouldn't have been where I am and I would never have had [that shot to speak to the, the head of the trading customs at the time, practice here at KPMG.

  Mosah: [00:19:02] I am hoping that each of you can weigh in a little bit on how you've cultivated networks, but more so how you would suggest that people go about building their own networks without it feeling transactional, right? Working to build genuine relationships that can be win-win. Throw that question out there for, for anyone who wants to take a first stab.

  Tom: [00:19:23] Hey, look, the first thing you've got to do Mosah is you've gotta be genuine. If you're trying to build a network just to build a network and you want to try to get ahead, that's not gonna work because you're not being true to what other people can do for you, right there. It has to be the quintessential win-win situation.

  So I look at, and at a mantra of ours at Koch and at Guardian is people succeed by helping each other succeed. And if you do that, if you come at it with that frame of reference that, look, I want to help you as much as you're gonna help me. That's how we succeed. And the second part of that is that you have got to have a professional inquisitiveness.

  You have to be interested in other people and other experiences. And other opportunities. We all mentioned that at the, at the outset, your first job is not gonna be your last. And the individuals you meet along the way, along that journey are all part of that journey. And who knows, having that professional inquisitiveness to understand what it is that they do, what makes them tick.

  That's the start of a mentorship. That's the start of you being a mentor and being mentored.

  George: [00:20:26] You know, Tom, if I could just build on that, I mean, the hardest thing for people, students coming out of college or you know, a master's program or even law school is I think sometimes they're like, look, I mean, I don't even know what I'm getting myself into.

  How am I gonna be passionate about it enough so that you could hire me? Right? Like, how do I now balance what it is that you believe is interested in your space, with the fact that I have zero experience, and I think that there's a lot there that if you're interested in things, for the sake of curiosity, for the sake of inquisitiveness, right? When it comes to things happening in the world, it'll show through and, you know, folks would be like, well, this person sounds like they're able to navigate, you know, and be nimble with a lot of different areas.

  Doesn't necessarily need to be a certain focus of law or regulatory regime or, you know, sanctions embargoes that we're working with or trading and customs tariffs and, and you know, China, you know, imports and such.

  I mean, doesn't really matter as long as there's some inquisitiveness in terms of what it is that, you know, I'm working on. And I actually think it's important to do your research before it, is that you go in and, you know, have an interview and find someone who you can match up with.. You know, ultimately, like we're all, you know, we're all working on things and interested in certain things and, you know, that connection, if someone doesn't take the opportunity to make that connection early on, I think they miss an opportunity to potentially use a, you know, a great career and, and they miss the opportunity.

  So I do think it's important that folks show that they're interested, do the research as well.

  Mosah: [00:22:10] Great. Thanks George.

  Lem: [00:22:12] I've got a great network of connections and, and friends, and it, it happened organically from a rearward looking perspective I can see now, why it went as well as it did. But I'll tell you just by way of background.

  Before I went to law school, when I was, when I thought I was gonna be at insurance, one of the things that I did not want to do was one of the most lucrative jobs you can have in insurance, and I didn't want to be in sales because I thought sales meant I'm asking somebody to subscribe to some service or, or product that they don't really need, that I'm gonna be pushing on 'em and, you know, knocking on doors and you know, like your, just your quintessential door to door vacuum salesman, you know, on a TV sitcom kind of thing.

  And so I was so averse to sales. Fast forward now 20 years later, after, you know, 20 years of law practice, uh, business development and talking to new potential client is one of my favorite parts of the job. Telling people what our law firm can do for clients and what I think I can do for them, you know, and learning what keeps 'em up at night and how I can help with that.

  But the way it started was at my current network was really just through a series of friendships, you know they send you to conferences and get involved in cases, and you meet other lawyers, lawyers on the opposite side, lawyers on the same side. And, I would just make those connections naturally and the network just sort of grew and connected that way.

  But I would say, you know, looking back, I've got a good friend, he's a high up executive in a fortune 500 company that you would all know if I said the name, but he always used to say we were young, I've known him for, you know, 15 years, 20 years now, but we were young and he had an issue in Mississippi and we met and he asked, asked me for help.

  I helped him and then he helped me and he used to say, Hey, it's people helping people. So never turned down an opportunity to help somebody else professionally. It all comes back. You do have to be naturally interested in people. You also have to be interested and willing have to be other people, uh, when you see those opportunities.

  And that's one of the ways that, that you grow your network in a genuine way. I would say never turn down an opportunity to stretch your comfort zone and broaden your experience and expertise. I've had several times when I was asked to do a thing or get involved in something and I thought, man, that's outside of my wheelhouse. I should probably just stay inside my comfort zone, but have routinely and intentionally chosen not to do that.

  That's opened up all kinds of opportunity, all relationships and contacts. And then on the aversion to sales part, that I was gonna come back to, you have to be honest. You had asked, I think there was a question about fear of rejection when reaching out to a new contact.

  That's an easy one because if you're honest in a way that you really think you can help clients or people, they may not be receptive to it, but as long as you have something worthwhile to offer and you know that, then you'll never be dishonest in your approach. And there shouldn't be any fear of reaching out to new contact clients ever.

  It should be something that's, uh, that's natural and something you want to do.

  Mosah: [00:25:25] That's awesome. That's great. Thanks so much. So I'd like to turn it back and, and let you kind of beat me to the punch about how it might be possible for people to overcome a fear of rejection when reaching out, because whether it be through business development, but obviously our, our listeners are primarily focused on new opportunities and helping grow their networks.

  Maybe in a sentence, and it's, sorry to confine you guys to that, but George and Tom, if you could give us just a sentence as to how you would suggest someone overcome that potential fear of rejection when they might wanna reach out to someone to talk about a, an opportunity or to get to know someone because they happen to have their dream job and, and look to learn from them.

  So either one can take it, but looking for your insights into overcoming fear.

  George: [00:26:21] Yeah Mosah I could take it first. I mean, my first one is, you know, ask yourself the question, what do you have to lose? You have nothing to lose if you reach out to someone and they don't respond to you, but you have a lot to gain if they respond to you and they want to share and they want to be in a position to help you.

  So I think you have nothing to lose by reaching out to folks and asking for help or asking just to meet and talk. Right. And so from my perspective, just being there, right, being able to send them a note, it's real simple. And you have nothing to lose in my opinion. That's the way I would approach it. Cuz otherwise it gets too complicated. You could actually, you know, talk yourself in a pickle.

  Mosah: [00:27:02] Could not agree with you more, George. Tom?

  Tom: [00:27:05] Yeah Mosah, so when we, when we think about, um, our careers or the individuals who help helped us along the way, if you think about their journeys too, every single individual that you encounter, no one's had anything just handed to him, down a primroses path. We've all had to work for it. We've all been in that situation.

  Everybody that you reach out to will be appreciative of the fact that you're doing it. Have the courage to get out there and not just advocate for yourself, but to be, to be curious. And like George, as you mentioned, if someone says no, they, they say no.

  This, and, and there may be multiple reasons for that, but there's plenty of opportunity. That's how you're gonna build. Um, well, when we grew up, you know, on long Island and New York City area, you know, we used to go to the beach and that water it was always cold. You just gotta jump in, man.

  You just gotta jump in, take that plunge and get that shock away. And after a while it'll be easier. Start doing it. It'll get much easier to reach out and have those conversations.

  Mosah: [00:28:04] That’s sage advice. I could not agree. And I know that chill, that water is freezing. I agree with you. It doesn't matter if it's, uh, June or September, it's still cold.

  Thank you so much Tom, George, Lem, it was great to have you on our show. Next month we’ll be releasing part two of this series, highlighting their insights for job seekers and hiring managers. Thanks so much.

  Richard [00:28:30] Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com