Jennifer Champlin | Networking, Relationship Building, and an Inside Look at the National Association of Women Lawyers
Jennifer Champlin: Networking, Relationship Building, and an Inside Look at the National Association of Women Lawyers
Jennifer (Jenny) Champlin, Director and DEI Incubator at Edward Jones and current President of the National Association of Women Lawyers (NAWL), joins us to share how to build and cultivate meaningful professional relationships. The opportunities that have presented themselves along Jenny’s career journey have been widely supported and inspired by the authentic network of people she surrounds herself with. We discuss how to effectively and efficiently manage your career and dive into why NAWL is a great resource and tool for women in the legal industry.
How to foster an environment and relationships where you are more likely to be networked into opportunities.
Evaluating opportunities.
Career management and using what Jenny references as “The Job Trifecta”.
Active job seekers: being intentional with relationships.
Inequities in terms of compensation and the pursuit of opportunities; how can women become their best advocates.
Building a robust network gives your resources when needed and the ability to view yourself through a different lens.
Authentic, genuine, and mutually beneficial relationships.
The National Association of Women Lawyers.
TOP TALENT ADVOCATES REMAINS COMITTED TO PHILANTHROPIC EFFORTS. EACH GUEST IS ASKED TO SUGGEST A NONPROFIT OF CHOICE FOR OUR SUPPORT.
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[00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach or simply interested in talent. There is something here for you on Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.
You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now, here is your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.
[00:00:44] Mosah: I'm joined today by Jenny Champlin, Jennifer or Jenny, works for Edward Jones as the Associate General Counsel. She's held positions at Walmart and has also worked as a practicing attorney for Crow and Dunlevy and Nixon Peabody. She's a graduate of Cornell Law School and holds a BA in English from Oklahoma State University.
She's also the President of the National Association of Women Lawyers. If you're interested in learning about NAWL, the National Association of Women Lawyers, about how to build and cultivate meaningful professional relationships, and about how to effectively and efficiently manage your career, I suggest you listen to Jenny's insights.
Jenny, thanks so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your insights.
[00:01:37] Jenny: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
[00:01:40] Mosah: Our listeners, can see your bio on our transcript and know a little bit about you. You've had a really successful and varied quite honestly, just an impressive career.
Walk us through the highlights and tell us a little bit about each of those experiences, basically how'd you get to where you are today?
[00:01:58] Jenny: Sure. I'm happy to do so as I look back over a now 20-year legal career, which is a little bit shocking, as I say that out loud I've been very lucky to be in different environments from big law to regional law, to big in-house to mid-size in house.
And had a wonderful opportunity to experience different substantive legal areas. When I graduated from law school, I was looking at white color criminal defense work at a big law firm, and I loved that work. And I've had the opportunity to experience commercial litigation, e-discovery, employment law.
I've stepped out of legal to do an HR role. And now I'm in a non-legal role leading a DEI incubator, which if you'd asked me if I was going to be doing that 20 years ago, when I graduated from law school, I would've told you, you were nuts. And here I am. And it's some of the most fulfilling work I've been able to do
[00:02:49] Mosah: Tremendous.
So what have been some of the biggest challenges, I guess, let us into that journey. What have been some of the biggest challenges, biggest surprises that you've experienced along or route besides saying that you work for an incubator?
[00:03:02] Jenny: Yeah, right. What does that mean? Um, you know, I think the biggest surprise is that when you go to law school and you, you're asked to think about what you want to do with your legal career, and then you go into a law firm and you focus on, this is the area where I'm gonna build my career.
You start to think that's where you're committing for the rest of your career. And so the biggest surprise to me, is that I have been able, not only to experience different areas, both legal and non, but to build confidence in those areas. Right. You know, again, if you'd asked me when I graduated from law school, whether I was going to be an employment lawyer, I would've said, I don't think so.
If you'd asked me if I was going to step out and do an HR role, I don't think so. So that I, I think, both the surprise and the challenges getting out of your own head. The opportunities that I've had in my career have come to me because other leaders who I've built relationships and worked with have said, have you thought about this opportunity before? I think you'd be great at it. And it's really taken someone else to say, oh, maybe, are you sure? And you take the opportunity, and you build confidence, and you succeed. And so I don't think I anticipated that. I thought I was going to do one thing. One thing only for 20 years, I was going to become an expert.
And I don't know that I would've been satisfied doing that.
[00:04:24] Mosah: So you raised an interesting topic about people coming to you and asking you to consider or posing new opportunities as concepts to you. That happens certainly for a lot of people, but it doesn't happen for everyone. And I'm wondering if you might share a little bit of some insight into the intentionality that people might need to take with respect to networking and helping foster the type of environment and relationships where that's more likely to happen, where someone is more likely to say to a candidate or to a professional, hey, we've seen you work in this capacity. Have you considered X, Y or Z?
[00:05:01] Jenny: Oh gosh, that's such a good question. I don't want to suggest that I have been overly intentional with engineering the steps that my career has taken. And so that's a hard question for me to answer around if somebody wanted to be intentional with a career, how would they do it? I will tell you what has been successful for me. For me again, it's about building relationships and about building trustworthy, trusting, authentic relationships. What do I mean by that? So everybody that's been to a networking event comes armed with their business cards and you're looking for, okay, who's gonna help me develop my business?
Who's gonna help me get that next step in my career? That sort of networking event with that sort of expectation around it doesn't feel authentic to me. And so the way that I've gone about it in my career is truly just getting to know other peers, colleagues, leaders, and saying, hey, teach me about what you do, right?
Oh, great, that sounds amazing. How can I, in the role that I'm in today support you in the role that you have? How can I help you succeed? What does success mean to you? And I have felt that those relationships built on a sort of foundation of mutual interest, authenticity, investment in each other's success, ultimately end up where that person thinks about you even if they've moved on to another company, another role, have a stretch assignment. Oh gosh. I'm thinking about that person who invested in that relationship. Who really impressed me in that conversation or in that assignment that we worked on together. I'm gonna reach out to her when I've got that stretch assignment or that opportunity.
[00:06:53] Mosah: As you look at the different opportunities that you've been presented with over your career, how have you evaluated them? Assuming you you've declined some and obviously have run towards others. What's that process been like? And what insight would you share with our listeners?
[00:07:10] Jenny: Yeah. You know, I, again, I'll give you the sort of the cheeky answer, which is, you know, every time I've been approached with an opportunity, my answer has been your nuts.
I don't know how to do that. I would not recommend that to your listeners or to others who are thinking about other opportunities. You know, I got some very good advice from a leader one time who said, as you evaluate different opportunities, the question that should be in the back of your head is, does this opportunity first of all, allow me to learn things that I don't know about in the role that I'm in today or in the career that I've built? Does it allow me to do something different? And what additional doors does it open long term? Does it open up other paths? Is it a doorway to something else? And so those are the things, when I hear about a new opportunity, whether I've sought it out, or someone approaches me with it that are in the back of my head, what am I going to learn?
How am I going to grow? And what additional doors might this open at some point in the future?
[00:08:12] Mosah: So someone feels like they are maybe stuck in a rut if you will, professionally or not, headed down a path that they're exceptionally passionate about something just isn't going right. Finding a new opportunity might be one option.
But the management of one's career is a real thing, right? Something that needs to be given thought and consideration. So what advice would you give to people as they look to better quote unquote, manage their careers as someone who has seemingly done a very good job of that themselves.
[00:08:47] Jenny: Well, thank you.
You know, I think it starts with understanding what's important to you in a particular role or in your career. Many years ago, I started to think about this in terms of a job trifecta. And so are you doing work that you are excited to get out of bed and perform every day? And are you getting paid fairly for that work?
You can always get paid more, but are you getting paid fairly for that work? And do you have a leader that's invested in you as an individual and your development? If you have all three, it's difficult to line all three of those things up in one opportunity. And so if you have all three, I say, you know, give it some thought, is it really time to be looking for that next opportunity?
But if you're missing the other one or the other two, then it is okay, this may not be the right thing for me at this point in my career. And think about who is it that you want to either emulate or learn more from, or who might connect you with an opportunity that you are curious about? I recently had lunch with a former colleague who was sharing with me about a new opportunity that he had, and I really loved what he said.
He said, you know, when I was in my prior role, I became fascinated with FinTech, right? That's a term that I'm still learning about, even though I've been in financial services for five years.
[00:10:18] Mosah: But you're in an incubator.
[00:10:20] Jenny: Right, right. I'm in a DEI incubator, not a FinTech incubator. Two different things. But he said, I became, you know, fascinated with FinTech.
I know nothing about it, and it scares me. And so, as I was thinking about my next opportunity, I thought, who do I know that can help me understand a little bit more about fintech? And he reached out to this former professor or professor connection that he had and said, hey, you're in FinTech. How do I learn some more?
And that professor said, oh, you need to go work for this company. Let me introduce you to their CEO. And that's the sort of experience, right? We all have relationships, networks, friends, peers, colleagues, who know something about something that we're curious about. Start there. Give a call and say, hey, I'm wanting to learn more about this.
Who would be a great person to talk to? How do I learn more about something that you're invested in or that you know, a lot about, you might be surprised about where that conversation goes.
[00:11:21] Mosah: So what advice would you give to someone who's actually looking to find that new job, they, they recognize that the trifecta that they have no longer works for them or that they only have sort of one or two components maybe.
If they wanted to actually get active, start looking for a new opportunity, what insights either from your own personal experience or from those of people in your network, would you give to someone who wanted to be an active candidate?
[00:11:50] Jenny: So I'll tell you what I don't, what hasn't worked first and then that'll lead me into what I think works better.
I think it's incredibly difficult in today's world to apply for just a posting that you found on a job posting site and hope that you are going to be plucked out of the hundreds or thousands of other applicants based on what you have in your resume. It can be done. There are success stories. But I think the likelihood that that happens in today's day and age with the number of folks who are actively seeking other opportunities and all of the remote opportunities that are available now, it's really difficult.
The best opportunities that have presented themselves in my career have come again through somebody that I knew. Somebody, I knew that I went to law school with somebody that I knew that I, that I worked with at some point in the past, somebody that I know through NAWL. So I think it starts with who do you know, who do you already know?
And really being thoughtful around who's in my network. And is this person someone that would be willing to talk to me about what I'm interested in doing next? And I find that that advocacy, those relationships, the people who know you, the people who can introduce you, that is the fastest way I know, to help identify a new, a new opportunity.
You know, I don't wanna suggest that if you're very diligent and you find the right posting, that you won't be successful in, in seeking that out without a preexisting relationship, but I find relationships really unlock a lot of opportunity.
[00:13:20] Mosah: Yeah, absolutely. We counsel our clients all the time.
You're gonna get some percentage of success out of an online posting search. You're gonna get some percentage of success out of working and networking with recruiters. But that's only a small subset of the market and there's no chance either of those are gonna create new opportunities for you. So while recruiters are great resources, and certainly if you see a job online that you're interested in.
People hire people. And the more people that you can have those genuine relationships with, or in our case, work to advocate and network people into, I couldn't have said it any better. It's about networking and connecting with those folks.
[00:14:09] Jenny: I think the other thing that I mostly, you said it wonderfully, but I think the other thing is that those who know you and have seen you, whether it's personally or professionally also might be able to help you brainstorm or help plant ideas that you might not have had yourself.
An example would be it's great that you wanna go out for this type of opportunity, an HR opportunity, a DEI opportunity or a legal opportunity, but that person who knows you may also say, but have you thought about this? And it may be an issue of first impression for you, something you've never thought about, but those who know you and have had that relationship with you in the past may be able to help you think bigger and broader about what might be next for your career.
[00:14:50] Mosah: As far as opportunities and the concepts of equality and pursuit of those opportunities. What are some observations that you have Jenny, and what are some experiences and points of interest that you might wanna point out to our listeners?
[00:15:02] Jenny: I think getting in the ring. I think that's one of the biggest hurdles is, is being in the consideration set for the opportunities that matter, right?
Or that pay more, or that have more responsibility. And I think there's two issues that need to be resolved. One is the sort of individual conditioning that perhaps we, as women have experienced, at least in my generation. That makes us think that we should not raise our hands unless we are 1000% confident that we have the right answer, or we are the right person for that opportunity.
And I think that there's ways to deal with that sort of individual conditioning. And one is to surround yourself with others who are going to encourage you to push past what you think your limits are. I think the other is an institutional issue. We have an institutional issue where we have job postings and job openings, and we expect people to raise their hands for them.
And then those that raise their hands are the ones in the consideration set. Well, there's nothing in the rules that prevents the leader who posted the role from reaching out to others and saying, I think, I can't make any promises, I don't know who's gonna end up in the talent pool, but I think you'd be great for this opportunity.
And I would really like for you to consider. Both of those things have to happen. You have to push yourself past your limits, whether you're getting outta your own head or you're getting others to try to encourage you to push past those limits. And, or we've got to have sort of an institutional reframe where leaders are encouraging the talent that they want to be in the pool.
To be attracted to the opportunity and to apply and to envision themselves as being successful in the role. Only then can we have those meaningful discussions about value and compensation. I am a lot more likely to see a peer or a colleague of mine and say, oh my gosh, they'd be fantastic for this role.
You have to think about this person for this role. Oh my gosh, you haven't considered this person for this role? You have to, right? It's a lot easier for me, for some reason to advocate on behalf of someone else than it is to advocate on my own behalf. And I'm not sure why that is. And so until I can get to the same level of comfort advocating for myself that I can advocating for my friend or advocating for my peer, I can't be surprised that maybe I'm not being considered for a particular opportunity, or if I'm being considered for a particular opportunity that I'm not advocating for what I, what I'm worth in that role.
I think the other piece of it is that if I think about law firms in particular, right, NAWL just issued its annual survey report. And I'm not surprised that we're not making measurable progress and the percent of women and equity partnerships at am law 200 firms. I'm deeply disappointed, but I've been watching the progression.
And so the trends are not surprising. What surprises me are things like large law firm compensation committees are not going through basic sort of pay equity training or basic foundational training around the potential inequities and compensation or the compensation system. Only 38% or something like that, of law firms that responded said that they trained their compensation committees on potential inequities.
How are we ever going to make progress? First of all, if only 38% of the largest law firms are training their compensation committees to have this conversation. Secondly, those same large law firms have big employment departments where they're giving that advice to their clients, but they're not doing it themselves.
Right? So I do think there's opportunity on both sides here. You've gotta advocate for your value and your worth. And I will admit that I am not the best at that. I can do it for somebody else. No problem but I need to get better at even doing it for myself. The second is we need to really examine the systems that we've created that require women in particular, to raise their hand with an opportunity.
They may not think they're the most qualified for initially. Then when it comes to compensation are we really examining our own systems to address potential inequity?
[00:19:07] Mosah: So you've talked a lot about the benefits of having a strong and robust network. What would you say the single most important benefit of cultivating a network over your career is and should be?
[00:19:21] Jenny: At the risk of being repetitive. I think it's that your network may see things in you that you don't see in yourself.
And I think it can be a real confidence booster. I think the other thing is the folks who are in your network genuinely want you to succeed. I have yet to meet somebody in my network, right, or have kept somebody in my network or have cultivated relationship for someone who is hoping that I fail.
Right? So when I made the change from my prior role in the retail industry to financial services, I know nothing about financial services. I was blown away for lack of a better term by the number of particularly women that reached out to me and said, I've been in financial services for 25 years, there is no question that is too innate or too stupid to ask me. If you are too embarrassed to ask within your organization, what is an ETF for example, which I didn't know what that was call me. Right? Let me introduce you to other women in financial services. Let me introduce you to other lawyers and financial services.
And I had others working on my behalf to make sure that the moment I stepped foot into financial services, I felt like I had a solid foundation to understand the industry I was stepping into. I just don't know how I would've done it without a supportive, wonderful network of relationships.
[00:20:42] Mosah: And so when you look at the types of people that you're looking to network with. Or that you might sort of find pleasure in continuing to build a relationship with what do those people look like? And then what are the types who you look to avoid?
[00:20:57] Jenny: I'm gonna start with your second question first and I, I keep coming back to.
[00:21:04] Mosah: Besides Yankee fans.
[00:21:05] Jenny: Well, okay. Alright. You know, it's funny I talk a lot about unconscious bias in the role that I have, and we've got a lot of folks who immediately hear unconscious bias and think immediately about race. And that is obviously a very pertinent and relevant issue today. But I try to make the point that it's a bigger topic than just race.
And I give the example about the fact that I'm a red Sox fan. And so if I have a Yankees fan apply for a job that I'm the leader of, I might be prone to think that that person has poor judgment, for example, and not qualified to take my role. And that's a bias that I have to conscientiously check in order to make sure that everybody's having equal opportunity.
So this is an example I use in my day-to-day job as the bias between Red Sox and Yankees fans. But to get back to the question that you asked, I can tell you who I look to avoid building relationships with. And those are the folks who come into building the relationship that you can, you can feel it oozing from their pores that they're only looking for what they can get out of you.
We all have a limited number of hours in the day, and we are giving of ourselves in our workplaces, in our homes, in our volunteer opportunities, and I am not interested in a relationship where it is one sided. I want to learn from that relationship every bit, as much as you want to learn from me. And it needs to be a mutually beneficial relationship, and I'm not talking about necessarily a job that's gonna end up in a career, but I am always looking to grow and develop and get better.
And even when I'm approached by a potential mentee, for example, asking me to mentor them in their career or in my company or in a volunteer opportunity. I am always open to that relationship, but I always say I'm going to learn as much from you as you're going to learn from me. You know, let's do this together.
So the relationships I seek to avoid are the ones where it's about developing business and developing business only and what business I can give as an in-house council, for example. Without also saying here's what I can teach you. Here's what you're gonna learn from me. Those are uncomfortable relationships for me when they're one sided.
[00:23:25] Mosah: Fair enough. And then, so it's safe to assume that the antithesis of that is the types of relationships that you look to foster and cultivate?
[00:23:34] Jenny: Great, I didn't answer your question.
[00:23:36] Mosah: You took a couple shots at the Yankees, but no, you didn't.
[00:23:40] Jenny: I sure did. I sure did. The relationships that I actively seek out are authentic relationships.
Right. And I think I mentioned earlier, the question that I like to lead off with, tell me about what you do? Tell me about how that adds value? Tell me about how you can be successful and how, what I can do to help you be successful? What I hope the next question is, is great, how can I help you be successful?
Right? How can we do this together? And those authentic sort of mutual investment relationships are the ones that I feel the most comfortable in. You know, I don't know that I'm teeing that up in the right way. It sounds a little selfish and I don't mean it to be, I just I've been the legal support for business partners who are, you're here to serve me.
Yes, you're right. I'm here to help you make really sound business decisions but let me also help you understand how I'm being held accountable by my leadership. And so that maybe, that builds a deeper trusting relationship. You're more willing to share information with me that then I can help you be successful, and I can also be successful in the role that I have.
So it's authentic, genuine, and mutually beneficial.
[00:25:00] Mosah: So anything else for our listeners, whether they're curious about pathways and law, job seeking, ways to improve and manage their career, any, any parting thoughts?
[00:25:12] Jenny: You know, I think we've talked about a lot of it. And for me and for my career, I can't speak to every situation for every job seeker but for me in my career, it has been about those authentic, genuine relationships. And so it's a matter of setting aside the time and the energy to think about how am I going to invest in building that authentic relationship that doesn't feel one sided, mostly to succeed in the role that I have today.
That investment today will pay dividends long term. So I would say focusing on those, identifying those relationships in your existing professional environment, but also think about where can I invest outside of my professional environment? For me, it's the National Association of Women Lawyers and the Alpha Chi Omega organization that I belong to, those are groups that I know share similar passions to me and can widen and broaden the types of relationships that I have access to.
[00:26:12] Mosah: I know that you're involved in a lot of things, both personally and professionally, and one of your passions is supporting and advocating for women's rights and women's causes within the workplace. And so that's led you to be highly involved in NAWL the National Association for Women Lawyers. And you've been so committed that you're actually serving as the President.
Would you share a little bit about NAWL and what it means to you and your work with the organization?
[00:26:41] Jenny: I sure would. Thank you for the question. So, as you said, NAWL stands for the National Association of Women Lawyers. It's a national women's bar association that was founded in 1899. So it has a wonderful, storied history of women being involved in incredible causes like women's suffrage.
I was first introduced to NAWL in about 2010 by a leader in the Walmart legal division who was very engaged with NAWL. Walmart was a big sponsor at the time. Invited to join a planning committee for one of the major programs that NAWL puts on a year. And I just fell in love with the organization. At the time I was in Northwest Arkansas and there wasn't a huge community of women lawyers in the area, and it was an opportunity to meet women from all over the country, all devoted and passionate about the same thing.
All incredibly talented. And so it was this incredibly welcoming community that allowed me not only to network and build wonderful relationships across the country, but to advocate for things that I am passionate about, like pay equity, like racial equity and justice, like reproductive rights and justice.
So it's been a wonderful, fulfilling opportunity for me that I've been involved in over the last decade. And I just, I love the organization so much.
[00:27:56] Mosah: Jenny NAWL is working on five resolutions. Would you share some more insight into what those are and, and, and a little bit about each perhaps?
[00:28:03] Jenny: Sure. The board and the membership recently prioritized five areas where we decided we were going to focus our advocacy efforts.
So the first is in the area of racial equity and justice. The second is in the area of reproductive rights and justice. The third is in the area of pay equity. The fourth is in the area of voting rights. And the fifth is in the area of gender-based violence. And those are in no particular order. Those are just the order in which I remember them, that we are focusing our advocacy efforts in those five areas.
And it's the first time that NAWL has articulated those five in that way by passing board resolutions.
[00:28:39] Mosah: Tremendous. Thank you. And so there's a lot of social justice work that's a part of NAWL obviously, and one question that our listeners would probably have: how does NAWL help the women who are its members in terms of networking and maybe even job searching.
[00:28:54] Jenny: There are a number of ways that NAWL supports the building of relationships. I think this is something that NAWL does uniquely well, because it is a national bar association with women members from California to New York and all the way in between. Certainly that there are networking events that take place in conjunction with our in person programs that we hold about three times a year, in the spring and the summer and in the fall.
But if you can't make it to an in-person program and many can't, the next way that I think about networking and building relationships is to get engaged with one of our affinity groups. We have over 25 affinity groups that are based on substantive areas of law. So you have women in litigation, for example, or women in financial services or women in fashion law or women revolutionizing retirement.
And those groups put on virtual programs every so often throughout the year, each group has a different frequency or cadence, and they bring together virtually women in those substantive areas or in that career stage of life and build relationships that way. There's also a career site. So if you are actively searching for an opportunity today, there is a career center on our website where you can post your resume and be connected to other organizations that partner with NAWL that post openings.
So there's a number of ways in which NAWL fosters those relationships.
[00:30:19] Mosah: So if you're not a member of NAWL and you're interested in joining, what's the one-line pitch, if you will, not to minimize it, but what's the one-line pitch? Why should someone join NAWL today? If they're not currently a member and how can they do that?
[00:30:32] Jenny: How I talk about NAWL is the welcoming community of women that are waiting to meet you and to talk with you and to build our careers together. NAWL has a dual mission. One is to advance women in the legal profession and the other is to advocate for women's rights under the law. And if either one of those things appeals to you, you belong. So please join us.
The way that I would do it, first of all, I'm gonna joke a little bit here, but you can certainly email me or call me, and I'll tell you how to do it, but go to nawl.org and there is a membership dropdown, and you can just click on join NAWL. And we have any number of women waiting to meet you.
[00:31:09] Mosah: You know that on every episode we support a nonprofit and so when we talked about this in our initial call about joining the podcast, I asked you what nonprofit you'd like us to support and resoundly, you said NAWL. So thank you so much for the introduction to the organization, and we'll certainly be thrilled to support it. So thank you so much.
[00:31:29] Jenny: Thank you for having me.
[00:31:32] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the podcast link. You can also email us @ttatoptalentadvocates.com.
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